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British Sherman IIIs

 
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philhendry
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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Location: Lancaster, UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: British Sherman IIIs Reply with quote

Hello folks,

I’m having something of a puzzle at the moment. Having received three Sherman III kits for Christmas (Dragon kits No.s 7288 and 7305), I am, naturally enough, wanting to know more about their use by the British before setting in to build them. I need to get myself another Sherman Vc kit too - troops of Sherman IIIs in Nomandy had a Vc as the fourth vehicle.

In North West Europe, Sherman IIIs were used by the 8th and 27th Armoured Brigades - in those squadrons not equipped with DD tanks anyway. Those two armoured brigades seem, judging by photos, to have used large (red outlined white?) turret numbers supplementing (or replacing) the usual squadron markings.

And here’s the puzzle. There’s very little information available on the numbering sequence, and what there is all seems to derive, ultimately, from the same source, and I don’t see how it can be correct. In one of Malcolm Bellis’ ‘Datafile’ booklets, it states that:

“The 13/18th Hussars are believed to have used a system of 10-20 (RHQ), 22-36 (‘A’ Sqn), 44-58 (‘B’ Sqn), and 66-80 (‘C’ Sqn)...”

I'd never before thought carefully about this, accepting the text as being correct, but as far as I can tell, that doesn’t add up - there aren't enough numbers. Four troops of four tanks is sixteen vehicles per squadron, and that doesn’t include Sqn HQ - Bellis is only allowing fifteen numbers per squadron. So what’s the story? Does anyone know? I've hunted through all the photos I can find, and am no wiser. It isn’t vital to my modelling/wargaming, but I like to know this sort of thing!

Cheers,
Phil
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Alanmccoubrey
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Location: Westbury, Wilts, UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil, Could this be because you've given them too many troops, it was four troops of three changed to three troops of four when the Firefly came along.
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philhendry
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Location: Lancaster, UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fairly sure it was five troops of three tanks, until the Fireflies came along, when it became four troops of four tanks.

http://truxmodels.co.uk/page27.html

Phil
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Alanmccoubrey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil, The same numbers are given in Wise's "British Tank Names". The link you posted is a bit strange, there were 61 "gun tanks" in an armoureed regiment and so it says in the vehicles total, then it goes on to list 64 tanks, 4 in RHQ, 4 in each SHQ (total 12) and 4 in each os 12 troops (total 4Cool.
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philhendry
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Location: Lancaster, UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...there were 61 "gun tanks" in an armoureed regiment and so it says in the vehicles total, then it goes on to list 64 tanks, 4 in RHQ, 4 in each SHQ (total 12) and 4 in each of 12 troops (total forty-eight)

To be fair to Mr Trux Models, if you read the notes, he does say that Sqn HQs lost a tank to make up the four x 4 tanks in the troops, leaving 3 tanks in the Sqn HQ. He doesn't make it very clear though!

Just to be clear: prior to the issue of four Fireflies per squadron, the 19 tanks of the squadron were allocated as 4 in Sqn HQ, with five troops of 3 tanks. After the issue of the Fireflies, Sqn HQ lost one tank, making 3, and there were four troops of 4 tanks - for a total of 19.

Cheers,
Phil
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