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Questions about aufklarungs vehicles and 251/22
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Guild Respected

Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1406

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Faustnik wrote:
Bob_Mackenzie wrote:
And that puts the Luchs in 3kp....

Bob! I read 2.Komp for the Luchs.


Opps I saw three symbols and assumed 3kp - but the 1st symbol isn't a Kompanie


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Guild Respected

Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1406

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discussion on SdKfz-234 allocation from the

PzSpähzug staff PzAA

PzAA/1.SS LAH, IV/1944/1945, 5
PzAA/2.SS DR, IV/1944, 13
PzAA/9.SS HS, IV/1944, 4
PzAA/12.SS HJ, IV/1944, 4
PzAA/PLD, IV/1944, 13
PzSpK/FGB, IV/1944, 6
PzAA/2. PzD, IV/1944, 2
PzAA/4. PzD, 29.Jan.1945, 7
PzAA/9. PzD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA/11. PzD, IV/1944, 11
PzAA/25. PzD,
PzAA/116. PzD, IV/1944, 10
PzBrig 150, 1944, 6 - > at LAH?
PzAA “Elbe”/PzD “Clausewitz”, 1945, 1
?????? PzAA/PzD “Clausewitz”, 1945, 1+????????
PzSpKp “M”/“PzD “Müncheberg”, March 1945, 3+

of 200 Fhz!

PzSpähzug staff PzAA

PzAA/PLD II/1944, 25
PzAA/1.SS LAH, II/1944, 16
PzAA/2. PzD, II/1944, 25 (still 11 in the Dez.1944)
PzAA/20. PzD, III/1944, 16
KGr PUT lot/PzD “Clausewitz”, 1945, 1+
PzAA/7. PzD, 2,1944, 6

??? PzAA/13. PzD, 1944??????????? according to Jentz
Remainder (12?) at WaPrü and schools

90 of 101 Fhz. !



PzAA/PLD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA/9. PzD, /IV/1944, 3
PzAA/11. PzD, IV/1944, 3
PzAA/116. PzD, III/1944, 2
PzAA/1.SS LAH, IV/1944, 3
PzAA/2.SS DR, IV/1944, 3
PzAA/9.SS HS, IV/1944, 3
PzAA/12.SS HJ, IV/1944, 3

of 88 Fhz!

3 Fhz in the PzJgZg/Stabkp/PzAA
3 Fhz in in accordance with PzSpKp

PzAA/4. PzD, 1945 East Prussia, at least 3?????????????????????????????
PzSpKp 101/FBD, 16.2.1945, 6
PzSpKp “S”/PzD “Schlesien” 21.2.1945, 3 - > PzAA 44/PzD “Holstein” - > 18. PzGrenD
PzAA/PzD “Jüterbog” 21.2.1945, 3 - > PzAA/16. PzD
PzAA “Elbe”/PzD “Clausewitz”, April 1945, 2
PzSpKp “M”/PzD “Müncheberg”, 29.3.1945, 4
PzAA/25. PzD, 14.3.1945, 3
PzAA/21. PzD, 1.4.1945, 3
Begl.Kp zbV, 1.4.1945, 3 (tl KGr Speer its (Begl.Verband OKW Zossen???))
PzAA “Hg”/PzD “Hg”, 10.4.1945, 3
PzAA/25. PzGrenD 25, 12.4.1945, 6
PzAA/116. PzD, 15.4.1945, 6

= 39 of 89 Fhz!

234 - X
February/21. PzD, 1945
24. PzD 234/3 M. 2cm Flak???????????

PzAA/PzD “Clausewitz”, 1945, 1+?????????????

Sources: Groundpower No.7, Martin block, Ron Klages,


Fine thing that, times see which I in next time to it still contributing can. Hab' now not much time, therefore only a few short notes:

1. The Pz.A.A. “Elbe” was the Pz.A.A. of the Pz.Div. “Clausewitz”, a further Pz.A.A. “Clausewitz” did not give it. Therefore the distinction in your list does not make a sense. According to inventory report the 1 possessed. /Pz.A.A. “Elbe” with their arrival at 16.4.1945 in the evening 1 - the Sd.Kfz. 234/1 and 1 - 234/4. Further 234er was missing in the department.
The Fahrzeugbestand of the combat team “of Benningsen” (K. Nevenkin/Axis History Thread see also at present last side of the local “Clausewitz” Threads) was quoted incompletely by the Author. The data are missing for armament. The original document is then in two different way interpretable (keyword: SPW=Schützen-Pz.Wg or SpW=Späh-Wg.?) and indicated the armament suggests possibly the presence 234/2 PUT lot /Schiessschule in the Pz.Späh course of the Stabskp. That would know And juice mentioned “Puma” to explain. More to it later and in other place.

2. The Pz.Gren.Div. FHH please I from the 234/2 list to to paint, it received definitely no “Pumas”. Instead ask the 7. Pz.Div use, their 1. /Pz.A.A. 7 in February 1944 6 “Pumas” received.

3. Although in various postwar publications that emerges again and again the 4. Pz.Div some 234/4 to have received is, still nobody this by indication of source by original documents occupied. The first and at the same time last supply from 7 s.Pz.Späh cars to March 1944 to the division took place to 29.1.1945. A transportation message of the O.Qu. H.Gr. Weichsel as well as the status report of the 4. Pz.Div of 1.2.1945 occupy themselves clearly it thereby around 7 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 acted, nix other one! Otherwise the Pz.A.A. 4 had 6 good old Sd.Kfz at this time among other things. 233 with 7,5 cm L/24.

4. The Pz.A.A. star mountain did not belong to the Pz.Div. Müncheberg to separate became after dissolution of the Pz.Brig. 103, that it Anf. 1945, with instruction v. 11.3.1945 in Pz.A.A. 110 of the 10 was subordinated. Pz.Gren.Div renamed. However this division had to then extract the Pz.Späh kp after integration again and after Müncheberg for integration as Pz.Späh kp. To supply “Müncheberg”. Then however still some time lasted, there the 10. PGD itself in few “affectedly” has. As also is, the Pz.Div. “Müncheberg” did not have complete Pz.A.A. to separate only Pz.Späh kp. “Müncheberg”.

Source: Div. BA/MA and NARA of documents

Martin block


Again to 1.)
Whether from PUT lot also Sd.Kfz. 221 and/or 222 was bring along cannot I not with security say. On it like one arrives according to my modest opinion unfortunately not completely clear inventory report of 16.4.1945 interprets. Comes still!

Again to 2.)
60. Pz.Gren.Div. => Pz.Gren.Div. FHH => Pz.Div. FHH => Pz.Div. FHH 1
Thus I have the assignment lists of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr for S.Kfz. 234/2 and the monthly status reports of the division are present. This division does not have Sd.Kfz with security. , but however the 7 receives 234/2 “Puma”. Pz.Div.!!!
Only arise [with it no wrong hopes: There is only for this vehicle a separate list, all different runs simply under “heavy Pz.Spähwagen” and it gives only occasionally a note to the exact type ]
13. Pz.Div. => Pz.Div. FHH 2
The only supply of s.Pz.Sp.Wg in the year 1945 to this division unfortunately took place at the end of March 1945 without specified indication of type. I can introduce myself only with difficulty however, which is to have been there still 234/2 “Puma” thereby. 234/4 or the like substantially more probably appear to me. Where did T by the way write. Jenz that? I thought I would have all its works in my Bücherregal.

Again to 3.)
I am not the opinion documents am infallible, but if I have the choice between data in original documents and, I prefer data in the postwar literature clearly first. The reporting documents of the 4. Pz.Div. (1.3.1945 receives) up to and the transportation documents of the upper quarter master of the H.Gr. Weichsel say now times it exclusively concerned Sd.Kfz. 234/1. Afterwards there were no more supplies of Pz.Sp.Wg to the division and also not to others in the area.
Possible there later someone the target and is confounded. Gp. Kfz. Inventory report of 2.2.1945 (target/assigned/eingetr. /Ist/Fehl) lists a target of 13 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 and 3 Sd.Kfz. 234/4. Perhaps someone is there guessed/advised when investigating into the wrong column, which I know.
“Organizing” stop I also for improbable. Such vehicles did not stand simply in such a way on a Tr.Üb.Pl. 'rum. The distribution already weeks in advance fixed due to the prognosis over production which can be expected. There were also no supplies of s.Pz.Sp.Wg to other armored units in the area in January. /Feb. /Mrz. 1945 would be possible.
If one to absolutely speculate wants could one to at the beginning of March. 1945 into the Pz.A.A. 4 integrated Pz.A.A. “Munich” think, but even those should not have had 234/4 in accordance with list instruction.

Again to 4.)
Which R. Klages and/or K wrote. to Nevenkin are beautifully and well, but I (the notorious know-it-all) have the appropriate documents of the Org.Abt now directly before my nose to lie times here and it can reread, and since stands simply and moving something else possibly stated in it as the worth gentlemen in other place. There was only a Pz.Aufkl.Kp. Müncheberg and those were placed of the Pz.A.A. 110 (ehem. star mountain). Also the few occupy by the Pz.Div. Müncheberg receive remained documents. It becomes in each case of the Pz.Aufkl.Kp. Müncheberg spoken.


Martin block



To 22.3.1945 divided the Gen.Insp.d.z.Tr the OKH with it intends for (more near did not describe) a “special purpose” a Pz.Aufkl.Kp to set up, and asked for an appropriate instruction on the part of dr Org.Abt. One week later to 29.3.1945 was issued this list instruction then of the Org.Abt to the ObdE, that for his part on the next day the W.Kdo. III the instruction for the list of the “Begleit kp. I” with Pz.Aufkl.Ers.Abt. 4 Stahnsdorf gave.

Arrangement and equipment:

- Group of leaders, Kp.Trp and 2. - 4. Course in accordance with K.St.N. 1113 (fG) v. 1.11.1944 without 1 course [i.e. Volkswagen Aufkl.Kp.]
- 1. (s.Pz.Späh) course from K.St.N. 1109 (gp) (fG) v. 1.11.1944 = actually 3 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 & 3 234/3, according to instruction 3 - 234/3 however replace by 3 - 234/4
- 5. (Pak) course from K.St.N. 1140 v. 1.11.1943 = 3,7.5 cm s.Pak 40 mot. Z.

As a list final day was intended the 10.4.1945.

Is actual for the 1.4.1945 a supply of 6 s.Pz.Späh cars to the “Begleit kp. e.g. V.” registers. It might itself then probably around the equipment of the 1 mentioned above. Course acted.
[Notes: In the documents alternating the designation becomes “Begleitkp. e.g. V.”/“Begleit kp. I” however “e.g. uses, meisstens. V.”]

To 19.4.1945 the kp became. the Kgr. Moltke in the area Luckau assigned, over approximately with Calau announced soot. To clear up Pz.Spitzen.
To 21.4.1945 it dips with the Kgr. Hptm. Moews up
Afterwards hab' I nothing more.

Martin block


I only found that the PzAA Döring was subordinated to 13.04.45 of the kg Clausewitz. The PzAA is to have been to the Ausbilfdung on the TrÜbPl Altengrabow.
But starting from that one reads 14.04.45 only from a PzAA “Elbe”.

To 17.04.45 the PzAA Elbe announced to the following existence:
29 lePzSpW (4 250/8, 24 250/9) and 12 PzSpW (6x 221, 2x 222, 2x 234/1, 2x 234/4).

Since perhaps the PzAA Döring is not any longer mentioned can one from a change of name proceed?

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