THE GUILD
READ ONLY ARCHIVE, NEW LOCATION www.guildwargamers.com
 
Log in to check your private messages

Log in  Register


Profile  Search  Memberlist  FAQ  Usergroups
Questions about aufklarungs vehicles and 251/22
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    THE GUILD Forum Index -> Historical / Military discussion and Orbats
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Arathorn
Dedicated


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Questions about aufklarungs vehicles and 251/22 Reply with quote

Hi all,

I've got some questions about some vehicles in the AA. Rapid Fire!'s 'Unit Organistation for the 1944-45 Campaign in NWE' gives the example of a reccon battalion.

It states the heavy AC coy contains two Puma's, I guess these could be any type of 20/50mm armed 232/234 types?

The light AC coy has two 250/9's. I'd realy like to include two 222, but I'm not sure how common these were in the end of '44 and lateron in '45.

I noticed in some topic here that the 251/22 were only seen in '45 (maybe late december '44), but in what battalion were these used? Were they just used in the panzergrenadiers battalions, or something else?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tnkmodels
Guild Respected


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 1142
Location: The wilderness

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends whether you want to do a specific unit because the puma was quite rare 12thss had some but other recce units made do with 232 armoured cars in the heavy company. The 222 was being seen less during 44 but that's not to say there were none,again 12thss didn't use any as the armoured cars they used were mostly 8 rads and 250 halftracks with some 251's and 251/9.
recce units were a real mix of stuff,what ever was to hand was used, so if your doing a generic unit use whatever fits in for 44 even 222's.
_________________
visit my website

www.tnkmodels.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bob_Mackenzie
Guild Respected


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1406

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were definitely 222's around in 44

That RF TO&E looks suspect - for a start Pumas were deployed in groups of 25 - 5 stands (except in some units where there was a platoon as part of the HQ)
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tnkmodels
Guild Respected


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 1142
Location: The wilderness

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob is quite correct on the 222's.
The rapid fire recce unit is a "gaming unit" that is to say it's not accurate it's designed to just give a very general recce unit with as many vehicles for variety as possible.
_________________
visit my website

www.tnkmodels.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Alanmccoubrey
Established


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 822
Location: Westbury, Wilts, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1st armoured car company could have 26 Pumas if it belongs to Lehr, 16 if LAH, 25 if 2 PD or 13 if 20 PD, these were the only units to receive them. The normal company was a mix of SdKfz 222, 232 and 233, as Bob said even in 44 the 222 was still on the TO&E. The 234/1 and /3 replaced the 232 and 233 from late summer 44.

The 2nd armoured car company had either the SdKfz 250/9 or if they were really posh the Aufklärungs 38(t), 3 PD and GD or the LUCHS, 4 PD and 9 PD.

Confusing isn't it ?
_________________
Alan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bob_Mackenzie
Guild Respected


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1406

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off the top of my head I thought it was 1kp that had Luchs, Puma or AufK-38t - but I could be wrong - going on memory
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Alanmccoubrey
Established


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 822
Location: Westbury, Wilts, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me too Bob, it could well be, I think 4 PD replaced its LUCHS with 234/1, I did say it was confusing.

Here is a nice link re the 251/22.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/message/1111996117/Some+previous+threads+on+the+subject
_________________
Alan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bob_Mackenzie
Guild Respected


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1406

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4PD I can do...



All this from the axis history forum:

Quote:

Far right: 1.Kompanie with two Pz.Sp.Wg. platoons. The 7,5cm most probaly Sd.Kfz. 251/9 and the rest are Pz.Sp.Wg. with 2cm cannons.

Then the 2.Kompanie with the armoured symbol for the Luchs and the Pz.Wp.Wg. platoon again with 2cm vehicles.

The 3.Kompanie with light SPW

The 4.Kompanie with ditto

and the 5.Kompanie with a mix of Sd.Kfz.251 vehicles. I would have to look into the original sketch to see all the details of the 5.Kompanie.

____

Thanks, Christoph!

Can you explain the row of numbers under 5 Kompanie, and the numbers to the left of the chart?

Prit


OK that is a little bit tougher Smile

From left to right what I think with the best of my knowledge and what can be deciphered from the document.
Pionierzug with 12 l.M.G.
8x l.M.G.
6x Gr.Wf.
1x s.M.G.
3x 7,5cm Pak
1x 7,5cm Sf.
next I can´t read properly
6x 2cm
3x ? "Dr." maybe means "Drilling"

The small numbers on the left took me long to find out but once I came across a document where they were explained.
Top number means Shortage in man in %
Middle number is ill/wounded up to 6 weeks in %
Total manstrength in %

____

Addenda:

AA 4 never converted to the 1944 Gliederung. Instead its Gliederung was based upon the 43 type standard for the rest of the war. During 1944 it was not pulled out of the front to refresh. This happened only in January 1945.

The rightmost symbol is the schwere (s) Pz Späh Zug (7,5cm). A unit raised only on special order, which was issued in this case. It was equipped with the older Sdkfz 233. Six were issued in September 1943 and they were still around more than a year later. One was in repair at the end of 1944 and it seems that the problem proved to be fatal. Thus only 5 x 233 in March 1945, each with a 7,5cm Kwk and one le MGs. Note that their number is included in the total of 22 s.PSW.


The 1./AA 4 was a Panzerspäh Kompanie. As can be expected, not having converted to the type 1944 Gliederung, it has not become part of the Stabskompanie, neither did it adopt any Sdkfz 234 prior to 45, but instead had to work with a mixture of light and heavy armoured car during the whole year. The standard 1943 type was 6 troops of light four wheelers , 2 x Sdkfz 222 and one 223 (le PSW Fu) per troop and three heavy troops with 1 231 and one 232 (Fu) each, giving the grand total of 18 le PSW and 6 s PSW. At the end of 1944, we still find 4 x 223 (le MG), 5 x 222 (2cm Kwk), 3 s PSW (2cm KwK). The number of 22 s PSW in March is hard to explain. Delivery reports only report the issue of 7 s PSW at the end of January (most probably all calibre 2cm Kwk, so 234/1 at this date). I haven't found any deliveries of sPSW between March 1944 and this date, when one lonely 232 was issued (probably only to compelement the 5 x 231/232 issued in June 1943 and thus bringing the total of sPWS to the 6 allowed for). Imho it is a typo together with the number of le PSW. It should read 13 s PSW (6 older 231/332 and 7 new 234/1) and 4 le PSW, giving the correct total of 17 x 2 KwK.

The 2./AA 4 is special as it was the only Luchs Kompanie together with 2./AA 9 in the Wehrmacht. Of the 24 still with the Abteilung at the end of 1944, albeit more than 50% in the repair facilities, losses sustained had to be replaced by the more standard 250/9 by March 1945. This shows on the Gliederung as a separate Zug.

3./ and 4./AA 4 were both mounted on the 250 variant which was a rare sight by then and again echoes 1943. They were short of roughly a third of their armoured transport each. Interestingly, they used 250/9 also in these Aufklärungskompanien, which was non standard. It is even more interesting to note that this material seems to have been brand new. 47 le SPW were received in Jan 45.

The 5./AA 4 still had a Panzerjäger Zug, which had been dropped in the 1944 Gliederung offically. If the SP is an old Marder or a 251/22 is hard to tell. I suppose the latter, as the presence of another type of armour would probably have been noted next to the 22 mSPW shown. The unit then had 3 x 251/21 Drillinge 2cm and 6 x 251/9 7,5cm Kwks

___________

Some additional info about Pz.A.A. 4 that might be of interest:

A detailed gp.Kfz.Lage in the records of the 4. Pz.Div. show that on 2.2.1945 the following types of Pz.Späh-Wg. were on hand:
4x 222 (2 cm)
4x 223 (Funk)
3x 232 (Funk)
6x 233 (7,5 cm)
1x 247
1x 261 (Funk)
2x 263 (Funk)
18x Luchs (plus 2 in long term repair still in Kurland)

7x 234/1 were still on the way to the division. That these were just 234/1 is also confirmed by a document of the quartermaster general of H.Gr. Weichsel. I have read in some publications that the division also received some 234/4 with this delivery, but so far records show otherwise.

On the same date the division reported having these Sd.Kfz. 250 variants available:
22x 250/1 (plus 1 in long term repair still in Kurland)
17x 250/3 (plus 1 in long term repair still in Kurland)
13x 250/5
16x 250/9
This includes 45 vehicles that just had been delivered (22x 250/1, 2x 250/3, 5x 250/5, 16x 250/9). As Hans already stated 47 le.SPW were shipped in January, but 2 either just failed to arrive in time before the document was completed or maybe were lost, I don't know.

If and how these figures help to explain those given in the 1.3.1945 OoB I leave to someone else. At times this can get frustrating!

One additional note: By an order dated 11.3.1945 the Pz.Aufkl.Abt. München was incorporated into Pz.A.A. 4. I do not know what equipment Pz.A.A. München had still left at that time, but originally it was authorised to have:
2x 4 Rad-Pz.Fu.Wagen
2x le.Pz.Späh-Wg. (Horch)(Fu)
1x 234/2
from Pz.A.E.u.A. 7

8x 251/3
3x 250/3
from H.Nachr.Schule Halle

2x 234/1
1x 234/3
5x 222
from H.Za. Frankfurt/Oder

16x 250/9
from H.Za. Naumburg

I do not know if Pz.A.E.u.A. 7 and H.Nachr.Schule Halle eventually did provide what they had been ordered to, but the delivery records show that at least the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. had shipped 3 s.Pz.Sp.Wg., 7 instead of 5 le.Pz.Sp.Wg. and 16. le.SPW.


_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bob_Mackenzie
Guild Respected


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 1406

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that puts the Luchs in 3kp....
_________________
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Alanmccoubrey
Established


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 822
Location: Westbury, Wilts, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob_Mackenzie wrote:
And that puts the Luchs in 3kp....


Which bit did you read that in ?

The inclusion of a Marder in the 5.Kp is strange, the only other unit I've seen with that was HG in September when their PAA also had a single Marder.
_________________
Alan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Faustnik
Tenant of the Guild


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 394
Location: Lisboa, Portugal

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob_Mackenzie wrote:
And that puts the Luchs in 3kp....


Bob! I read 2.Komp for the Luchs.

Faustnik
_________________
http://faustnik-den.tripod.com/battles.htm
http://mad-dog-kit.tripod.com/altaya.htm
AJSP #016
MAFVA #4961
SOTCW #837
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arathorn
Dedicated


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Bob_Mackenzie. That is some realy interesting info.

I think I feel quite comfortable fielding a mix of 222, 232 and 234 vehicles by now Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Panzer21
Dedicated


Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 154
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tnkmodels wrote:
It depends whether you want to do a specific unit because the puma was quite rare 12thss had some but other recce units made do with 232 armoured cars in the heavy company. The 222 was being seen less during 44 but that's not to say there were none,again 12thss didn't use any as the armoured cars they used were mostly 8 rads and 250 halftracks with some 251's and 251/9.
recce units were a real mix of stuff,what ever was to hand was used, so if your doing a generic unit use whatever fits in for 44 even 222's.


I thought the Puma in 12th SS HJ was Alan's interpretation of "50mm guns blasting Tommies" Very Happy
Is there any other evidence? I only ask as Dugdale doesn't show them in the reproductions of original documents (or at least I don't think it does).
I thought Alan concluded they may belong to 1st SS?
Neil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tnkmodels
Guild Respected


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 1142
Location: The wilderness

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god know's neil Rolling Eyes i am more interested in how the recce battalion was camo painted, some pics show plain gelb others show a green over gelb mottle Confused
_________________
visit my website

www.tnkmodels.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Alanmccoubrey
Established


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 822
Location: Westbury, Wilts, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Neil said, I added the Puma to HJ in that article because a Puma probably from LAH supported them for a short while.
_________________
Alan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    THE GUILD Forum Index -> Historical / Military discussion and Orbats All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

phpBB "skin" by DewChugr


© 2007-2008 Informe.com. Get Free Forum Hosting
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
 ::